I saw a post by an atheist recently that said you could be “Good without God.” This is a common myth perpetrated by atheists and others who want to build their own society without any absolute morals. It is impossible to be good without God. However, it provokes good questions that poke a hole right through the moral relativism of this day. By what standard do we measure right and wrong, good and bad? What is the basis of law and society? What is the foundation of truth? These are questions that are impossible for moral relativists to answer.
The Bible is the standard of truth and morals that Western society was built upon. It is the standard that holds up to scrutiny and criticism. It is the standard that works best with society (look at what Western culture has produced), and the one that lays out the plan of salvation. The Bible defines what is right and what is wrong. The Bible is God’s Word, and God’s Word is truth. God defines “good” in every possible sense. One cannot be good unless he follows God’s commands, and he cannot be truly good unless he keeps all of God’s commands perfectly (Mark 10:18). This is impossible for us to do, so we need to look to One who can fulfill all of God’s commands perfectly, and have Him put His righteous works on us. This One is Jesus Christ.
Our law in the United States is based on the fundamental principles outlined in the Ten Commandments; just look at the Ten Commandments that are engraved and painted everywhere in the Supreme Court (no, those are not the Ten Amendments). Without this standard, society breaks down. If nothing can be absolutely right or wrong, why should we obey laws? Why should we keep vows? Why is it wrong to murder? Why is it right to give to charitably to other people?
Some would say that if the people involved agree, then it’s okay. But who is to say that those people who agree are right, or that their actions are right? This supposed standard is pretty flimsy. According to this standard, adultery is okay, since the two people agree. Cheating is permissible, since it is just you who are involved, looking out for your own personal good. Corporate corruption is fine as long as it doesn’t get discovered and affect the lives of others.
Some say that as long as it does not negatively affect someone else’s personal life, it is fine. But who is to say that even violating someone else’s personal space is wrong? That idea is just the philosophical conclusion of some other guy whom you don’t have to pay attention to since there is no absolute truth, and everyone’s opinion is equally valid. Another standard that some people set up is whatever makes you feel happy is good. This is also wrong. Just think of sado-masochists, who get pleasure from hurting other people. All sorts of disorder break loose in a society without a fixed standard.
Islam also has this inconsistency in a way. Their god, Allah, is an ever-changing, erratic god who can do and does do everything in a disorderly, chaotic fashion. The outflow of this is that one day something might be right, and then the next day it might not be. So blowing yourself up in a suicide bombing might fine with Allah one day, but the next it might send you to Hell. Cheating and corruption by police is okay, since you can make it up by obeying the pillars of Islam. It makes for unstable societies where democracy doesn’t work.
Without an absolute standard, it is impossible to know truth, to do good, to punish evil. Since our society is losing this sense of moral constancy, dreadful things are taking place which are an abomination to God and lead to the death of a culture. We are calling good evil, and evil good (Isaiah 5:20). Homosexuality is called normal; babies in the womb are called non-human; murder is permissible; capital punishment is called a crime against humanity; abortion is declared legal and right. We are losing all standards in our society, and if we stay on this course, it will lead to our downfall.
By what standard do you measure your actions?
January 17th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
Althusius,
In the comments of my article that you link to, in which you challenged me to explain the foundations of my morals, I began with simple series of questions for you to consider, which you have not yet completed. If you want to understand my moral foundations, I challenge you to not ignore those but consider and respond.
January 18th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Ironwolf,
If you want to understand my moral foundations, I challenge you to not ignore those but consider and respond.
We’ll come to my answer in due time— I presume you’re not in any real hurry?
January 18th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Althusius,
Cheeky.
January 19th, 2007 at 7:51 am
I believe Humankind is basically good. Morals are personal beliefs based on what the individual believes is good. There will never be a world-wide standard if it’s based solely on the bible.
The bible is not the only religious text that teaches morals, what about Hindus, what about Buddhists, are they not moral? In the west what about Unitarian Universalists? Humanists? Lump them in the same way you did Atheists. In short you may need the bible for the basis for your morals, but not everybody. There are those who do not need the bible as their source and are no more or less moral than you.
An example of Biblical morals:
Exodus 35:2,3
“Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.”
Put to death? Nice morals!
January 25th, 2007 at 12:25 am
Althusius,
I have responded to your question, “By what standard can you say that anything you do is good?” here.
January 25th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Good article. I liked how Chocomel ripped Exodus 35 out of it’s context.
January 26th, 2007 at 6:30 am
You like how it was “ripped” huh? It was Moses speaking to the congregation telling them that is what God commanded. Right there in black and white…just taking it literally you know.
“There will never be a world-wide standard if it’s based solely on the bible.”
“May I ask why?”
Why? I think you know, but anyhows…because there are “holy books” in all religions the Bible is just the one you believe.
No link to beautiful,lovely but I’d sure love to read it.
January 26th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
“You like how it was “ripped” huh?” Yeah, I do. You don’t know the context. The context is so much wider than that, you have to see the big picture, not just the small things.
“I believe Humankind is basically good. ” By what standard do you say mankind is good? What about the problem of evil? There is obviously evil in the world, and if man was truely good, what is the corrupting influence that turns him evil? If man really was perfectly good, then the corrupting influence would have no effect, because he would have the ability to “stay on course” of his goodness. If it existed…good doesn’t exist without evil, something to be judged by. If something is good, then there has to be something that it’s not, it can’t just be good.
“Morals are personal beliefs based on what the individual believes is good.” And murderers who believe killing in Allah’s name is good, are perfectly fine? That’s a dangerous position.
January 26th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
I believe Humankind is basically good.
Beautiful, Lovely.
http://www.prorege.org/papers01/2006/05/24/modern-pelagianism/
There will never be a world-wide standard if it’s based solely on the bible.
May I ask why?
what about Hindus, what about Buddhists, are they not moral?
They are \”moral\” to a certain extent, but they are the wrong morals. See absolute truth for details.
In short you may need the bible for the basis for your morals, but not everybody.
It is not about needing the Bible, it is about the Bible being the only thing that contains absolute truth and morals that God laid down for everybody to follow. Your morals are undefined at the moment, which is what I am pressing Ironwolf for.
“Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.” Put to death? Nice morals!
Ditto what Slingpaw said, and see my response to Ironwolf\’s similar question on Levitical Law.
http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/237#comment-10777\\
January 27th, 2007 at 6:20 am
“You like how it was “ripped” huh?” Yeah, I do. You don’t know the context. The context is so much wider than that, you have to see the big picture, not just the small things.”
So you are saying you cant take some versus in the Bible literally? That is a cop-out to explain (or not) some of the totally stupid things found in the Bible.
I never said ALL mankind, of course there are people who are quite disturbed and believe they are perfectly sane. But I think we are basically good as a whole. I think Ironwolf’s reply on his website puts it much better than I ever could.
“And murderers who believe killing in Allah’s name is good, are perfectly fine?”
No it’s not and neither are murderers who believe in killing in God’s name. You should have mentioned that also. There are loonies everywhere.
January 27th, 2007 at 6:59 am
Althusius, I’d say I answered your question rather unambiguously, so I don’t understand why you say you’re still “pressing” me.
January 27th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Okay, sorry about those glitches; Wordpress’s comment correcting system was going haywire (I was editing my link, not your guys’ comments).
Chocomel:
Why? I think you know, but anyhows…because there are “holy books” in all religions the Bible is just the one you believe.
The Bible is the truth, the other “holy books” are lies. They don’t contain the truth or the absolute morals that God laid down at the foundation of the earth. They just present ideals, which are also sometimes perverse. See my response to Aidan (scroll down) for more.
I think Slingpaw just exposed the main falacy in your argument Chocomel. Ironwolf’s argument is pretty good, though also studded with falacies.
So you are saying you cant take some versus in the Bible literally? That is a cop-out to explain (or not) some of the totally stupid things found in the Bible.
About taking the Bible literally, read this exchange between you and me. Slingpaw is using the same rules of interpretation that I and other Christians use that you don’t want to try to understand. If you want more answers on that, just read the link to my response to Ironwolf on a similar topic.
Ironwolf:
I read your response, and I’ll be responding shortly.
January 27th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Oh yes, I remember our exchange well - The Bible is God’s word because it says so and you can prove it by: “faith”.
When there is a negative verse or a contradictory verse or a questionable verse it’s always “taken out of context”. If it were truly “Gods Word” there would be no room to question, and he would not have relied on man to write it down.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Go to on-the-radar.com for some good Bible Study and Atheism.
February 3rd, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Anyone who wants to actually find out what I said (which isn’t what Chocomel said) can go to the link.
http://groups.google.com/group/creationsciencegroup/browse_thread/thread/66c5c0b3d3bff1ef
February 11th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Sorry, you are right, I should have gone back and read that first, I got it mixed up with another post where the person used the circular reasoning of the Bible is “Gods Word” because it says it is.
However, you did say that you couldn’t prove that the Bible is the absolute truth that “You have to believe by faith” and that is what stuck out so prominently at the end of our exchange.
February 13th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
Yes, indeed. However, the point that you raised is that we interpret away certain passages of Scripture.
So you are saying you cant take some versus in the Bible literally? That is a cop-out to explain (or not) some of the totally stupid things found in the Bible.
I said that according to our exchange, we don’t interpret away things. Yes, you have to believe the Bible by faith, but once you have, those are the rules of interpretation that are valid.
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